Kim Benoy: You are listening to Midlife with Courage. This is where women in midlife come for inspiration, motivation, and sometimes a little education to help them live more boldly. Now let's get started.
Kim Benoy: Hello everyone and welcome back to Midlife with Courage. I am Kim Benoy, your host. I'm so happy to have you all here and I'm so very happy to have my guest with me here today. Her name is Dr. Angel Close. Welcome.
Angele Close: Thank you for having me. That was excellent pronunciation.
Kim Benoy: Thank you. I was a little nervous about it, but I love your name. Love saying it. Today, we are going to talk about how you help women live more fully right now. So tell us, where does that come from? We're talking about in the role of motherhood. So where does that all start?
Angele Close: Yeah, great question. Yeah, so I have three kids and for me it was, I mean, I had them while I was already in graduate school to become a therapist. So I already knew I wanna be a therapist. So I've always been really interested in healing and personal growth and development. That's just kind of who I am. That's just how I'm hardwired. And then a few years, the start of having my kids was fairly smooth, pretty uneventful, pretty typical those early years. But then as my kids got a little older and my first born is neurodiverse. And so when he was like at this age of, we didn't know this in total, he was seven, eight, nine, started to have some challenges and just these typical ways of parenting were just not working. And I was juggling my career and the three kids and then we moved to the United States from Canada. So that's where I have my French name, right? was like French, Canadian mother, but yeah, it was just this perfect storm of just like stressors and just feeling like I'm sort of failing at being a mom. Like this just isn't working. I must suck because I'm not getting kind of the outcomes that I would think I would get. and then at work, of course, because I'm, you know, working mom with three kids, I'm the last one to get to work, the first one to leave, and just I sort of felt like I wasn't really my best self at work even. So it just was really a rocky time. But of course, it is those rocky times that we are at the precipice of transformation, really, right? And that's what was true for me. So that was sort of like, if we use the term rock bottom, or just it was this perfect storm of stressors and change. And it just really led me to have to heal, to have to turn towards myself and go, what is going on? I was so kind of surprised because I was this therapist and trained in meditation. I'd been meditating for years and just suddenly all the things that I knew weren't working anymore and so I needed something new. I learned this word, matresence, which sadly it's still not in our dictionary yet, but we're going to get it in there. which explained a lot of what I was feeling, what I was going through. So, matrescence it's a word that was coined by an anthropologist who was interested back in the 70s, discovering sort of what happens to women as they become mothers? is, you know, what happens just as human? And it turns out a lot. It turns out it's a really profound developmental transformation of our identities. We learn, we grow, we change, we evolve, But this was all news to me because nobody had been talking to me or the books I had read to prepare for motherhood. Nothing sort of spoke about what was more nuanced. know, these like inner little shifts, like feeling ambivalent. You know, part of me really loves my career, but then I also want to be there with my kids and I feel torn and I feel ambivalent about motherhood. so it was just really, really hard. But when I understood this word, it made a ton of sense to me. And I felt just kind of seen and instead of sort of blaming myself cause I just thought, well, I guess I'm just not a good mom or not doing this right. I'm not that super mom. You know, I'm really struggling internally here. And this word made sense to me. And so that was kind of the starting of a new journey for me to really want to work with moms because I thought, why do not all moms understand that they're in this profound transformational phase that all of their feelings make sense. And I just kind of wanted to shout it from the rooftops. And also part of matresence is to understand that through this change is you are on a healing journey, right? So our children are sort of little mirrors to us about what we didn't get. Of course, all parents do the best they can with what they have, but we're imperfect and trauma is passed down one generation to the next until we do our healing and sort of break these cycles. And so for me, that's what parenting has very much been. It's been a mirror opportunity of I just, you know, because my, my kid wasn't responding ultimately, and he's been my greatest teacher. You know, it really was this pivotal thing of okay, it's time for me to go back inside and I have some more work to do. And it's been a really profound transformational opportunity. So for me, I feel like know, if all moms knew about matresence, they might not struggle with shame, mom guilt, self-blame so much. and then the next piece is to see it as a profound opportunity of really growth, to break out of the shell of us trying to be, you know, we go from wanting to be that good girl to then be that good mom. And then really, if these are shells and limiting beliefs and and myths that we've all sort of absorbed. And so I see, matresence gives us an opportunity to really see that heal and decondition ourselves break out of these shells, so we can live more courageously and true to who we truly are. So that's the other piece of my message is it's really about hope and empowerment.
Kim Benoy: Yeah, for sure. I've done this podcast for five years. And I think you might be the first person that I've talked to about this topic related to motherhood.
Angele Close: even people who work with mothers haven't heard of matresence yet. But it's become very popular this last month. there's been a campaign. Yeah, we're getting some traction. We're going to get that word in the dictionary so that all mothers understand like it's it's likened like adolescence. So it's just like, you know, imagine
Kim Benoy: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Angele Close: for teens if we didn't have that word adolescence because it gives us so much knowledge and understanding. So it's a parallel type of, a developmental process. So there's so much we can gain and learn and help women by understanding this word.
Kim Benoy: Sure.
Kim Benoy: Yeah.
Kim Benoy: most of the women listening are of a certain age. We're over 40, 50. Is that something that can help them even now I was a very young mother. had our babies right away. You know, I was 21, I got married, um, but my kids, but I still parent them. They're old. They're adults now. I almost said they were old. Um, oops. Uh, but.
Angele Close: Yeah.
Angele Close: Yeah. Apology.
Kim Benoy: Can that help the women listening too as far as that matresence
Angele Close: I I believe it can. I also feel like, you know, I had been a mom for nine years before I learned this term. but when we learn terms that validate our experience and help us understand ourselves, it can be mixed because what first it's like, my goodness, thank you. Yes, that makes sense. Like this language, it represents my experience, right? And then though there can be the shadow of it, which is, I wish I knew sooner. So it can open us up to some grief because it's and unfortunate that this word just didn't really get a lot of academic attention and because it's a women's issue, just, despite that there are professors at Columbia University and there are women who study matresence and try very much to get it out there, it takes a lot. get a new word in our vernacular. And it just sadly didn't, it's happening, but it's a bit late. And so I appreciate your question to say that, yeah, a mom who's now launched her kids is gonna, now, I think it helps. I think it helps them now understand their daughters or their daughter-in-laws and being a grandmother. So, matresence is a lifelong thing because, know, yes, you're an early stage mom, so there's that phase.
Kim Benoy: rate.
Angele Close: then you're now guiding your kids through sort of adolescence and all those changes your kids go through, you're simultaneously changing. Then of course, when they leave, that's, we call it the empty nest. We have words to sort of reflect that our identity and our roles and our whole life is changing. Now again, and transforming. And if you become a grandparent, that's a whole other phase.
Kim Benoy: Right.
Angele Close: And so I do think it is incredibly still helpful to understand that word, but it just might come with a little bit of sadness and grief. like there's a story I heard from a colleague of mine who was teaching the word matresence to her grandmother who's in her eighties and says, yeah, grandmother, yeah, she's like, there's this thing called matresence and she explains it, you know, and you have these feelings of ambivalence and you, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And her grandmother said,
Kim Benoy: interesting.
Angele Close: like paused, had like a little tear and said, I thought it was just all me. You know, like I thought I was doing it wrong. And so it just, yeah, when I hear stories like that, they just move me. And it just sort of like, really motivates me to spread the knowledge around matresence because I think all stages of us women, if we are moms or we know moms, you know, it just helps us understand.
Kim Benoy: Right. Right. And there's always value in looking back and learning from what happened. You know what? Yeah.
Angele Close: Yes, absolutely. And I think it could bring, you know, when I, for me, the word and when I tell moms, a light sort of goes off in their eyes when I explain it, because they're now understanding themselves better, and it comes with more compassion. I think it can bring even if your kids are no longer in the home, I would hope that you having now this language, even if it is retrospectively, that you can give yourself some grace and some self compassion.
Kim Benoy: Yeah.
Kim Benoy: Absolutely. Yeah. And I mentioned that, we had kids young and I had twins. we two at once and right off the bat. it wasn't that long ago, actually, where I was thinking, you know, I kind of grew up with my girls in a way, you know, both of us did. yeah. and that, yeah. Yeah. So, one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about, you talk about,
Angele Close: Okay.
Angele Close: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We do. We do grow up again, you know, through parenting. That's right.
Kim Benoy: The things that we go through the thing in any time of life probably but a lot right now like our exhaustion triggers our sense of losing ourselves. It's not just about motherhood, but it's connected to our old stories and expectations. What does that mean? Let's talk about that.
Angele Close: Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm in the phase, I should, I guess, age myself here for your audience. You know, I just turned 50 last year and I'm in perimenopause. And at the same time, because I had my kids later, I was 34 when I had my first. so, you know, I'm in, of course, in a house with three adolescents who have all their hormones. And then I'm going through my own new phase of, it's fun. It's a lot of emotion, a lot of
Kim Benoy: You
Kim Benoy: Mm-hmm.
Kim Benoy: I am so sorry.
Angele Close: a lot of learning, but it's, you know, I joke. It is challenging at times for sure. And again, I do believe that it's opportunities. Like even, you know, the symptoms of perimenopause, I've really been working a lot with almost even coming back to my roots of my mindfulness practice and offering self-kindness and compassion to myself because
Angele Close: you know, the new roller coaster of intense emotions that can come in this phase of life. You know, midlife phase is, is I think of an awakening, it is shifting, it is an identity transformation. And it can feel like really bumpy moments. And so what do we lean on to understand it? So there's different ways of making sense of it. But then my experiences, I've had to
Angele Close: Yet again, in this phase, this chapter, what are my anchors or my pillars or what practical practices can help me through what feels like pretty tumultuous moods and emotional reactivity, also paired with, yeah, what am I focusing on for this next phase of my life? I have found that there's been a real shift for me in...
Angele Close: recognizing and being more discerning with where is my time and energy going? Like self-care in a next sort of deep way, because the world is very interesting right now. It's very noisy. we completely lose ourselves in the external world. And so for me, it's been to just really choose more quiet, really choose, be more mindful.
Kim Benoy: Sure.
Angele Close: to not get so distracted with the noise of the world for my own self-care, for my own emotional mental health, to really focus in inwardly. And so that's kind of the chapter that I'm in right now, and it's feeling very nourishing. I'm really enjoying it, and it feels like there's some wisdom in it. I feel like that's a wisdom that I'm getting now that, you know, I would use words like self-care 10 years ago.
Kim Benoy: Mm-hmm.
Kim Benoy: Yeah.
Angele Close: teaching as a therapist have been helping and guiding people on their healing journeys for years, 20 years actually. But I feel like at this midlife moment for me and where I am at, I am understanding it with a lot more depth and a lot more wisdom about what does it really mean to take care of ourselves, know, physically, emotionally, spiritually, in all of the ways that we are thriving in our life. I don't know if that answered your question. It's pretty
Kim Benoy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was a big topic. yeah, but I like the fact that I've seen this and experienced this too, and other people too, where you talk about self care and at one stage of your life, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's self care. Take a bubble bath, whatever. But now as midlife women, we're like, no, that it's way more than that. And I can appreciate it more and what it really means.
Angele Close: pretty, I went a little off with it.
Angele Close: Yes, that's right. That's right. Like self care is about having boundaries, right? Learning to say no, that's been, you know, one of those moments for me, I was like, yeah, I could have used that sure in my 20s. But now I'm like, we don't, I just don't have time to mess around anymore with pleasing people. You know, like there, do admit women at this phase of life, there is a
Kim Benoy: Yeah.
Kim Benoy: Yes.
Kim Benoy: Yeah.
Angele Close: a real surgence of, you know, we don't know how much time we have left here. And we're sort of done putting everybody else's needs like as we've been conditioned socially as women, right? Like there's when I don't, I don't, you know, deny the gifts of being a caretaker those are beautiful, wonderful skills that we have to manage relationships, but women tend to do it too much. We do lean.
Kim Benoy: Right? Right.
Angele Close: Overall, of course, I'm generalizing, but if this resonates and you found yourself, know, prioritizing other people's feelings over your own, you know, that gets exhausting. And I think that catches up with us at this phase of life. And I think that's a great, great thing.
Kim Benoy: Yeah, for sure. I love that you said the gifts of caregiving. We usually talk about as Yeah, I took care of everybody else like you were just saying and and now it's my turn and it almost gives it a negative connotation. But no, I love how you said that that's that's gonna stick in my brain. We're talking about that from now on. Love it. you have written a book about all of this and I love the title unburdening motherhood. And that
Angele Close: Yeah.
Angele Close: Yeah.
Angele Close: Yeah. Yeah. Let's live.
Angele Close: Thank you.
Kim Benoy: Yes, a guide, I'll say the rest of it, a guide to breaking cycles, healing trauma and becoming a self-led mom. So what led you to write the book? I'm always interested to see why do people write books? I want to know.
Angele Close: Well, because I think it was with that energy of wanting to spread the word wanting to help other moms because this word of matresence and it's such a profound journey and without that language, you know, I feel like women are out there on their own sort of flailing around and probably blaming themselves and being too hard on themselves and not understanding that they're in this amazing opportunity of development and growth and They can harness it if we understand it, right? That's the thing is understanding then leads to action and support and we can get that clarity. Okay, well, what do we need? Because every woman's matresence journey will be unique and unique to her. And so for me, I learned a particular model of psychotherapy at ironically at that same time in my life, I came upon to learn about internal family systems and started studying it and found it to be incredibly effective and helpful for me. as I said, to go inside and understand what's happening with the parts of me that are reacting and having a lot of different mixed feelings. And this model really, really helped very quickly, which I think is important because moms don't have a lot of time, you know? And I would sit and I could do like a 20 minute meditation and connect with a part of me inside and sort of follow the protocol of the model to really befriend what, know, 20 minutes earlier. I was really disliking about a part of me, you know, and then I could come to understand it, befriend it, and then feel so much relief and so much more, I guess I would say integration of self, just to feel more like myself versus, you know, the stress of sort of feeling these inner tug of wars that we can have sometimes, right, internally. And I thought this is amazing. This is so helpful to understand for me through being a parent, you know.
Kim Benoy: Mm-hmm.
Angele Close: to understand my triggers, my reactions, how to be more self-led. That's where the self-led word comes from is that IFS model. And I just thought, well, I guess, yeah, and I do enjoy writing. I've always kind of loved writing. so, yeah, book was the way I thought I'm going to spread my word and share it with other moms and give them that guide so that they can know how they can help themselves. So it's very sort of...
Kim Benoy: Yeah.
Kim Benoy: Yeah.
Kim Benoy: Yeah.
Angele Close: chapter by chapter, understand your different parts and how do you connect with your parts. every chapter has exercises so they can sort of follow along and hopefully experience some real inner shifts themselves. It's my hope. Yeah.
Kim Benoy: Okay.
Kim Benoy: Yeah, for sure. in your journey through motherhood or through your career, you can pick whenever what would be your most courageous moment? So far, I was at so far.
Angele Close: Yeah.
Angele Close: Thank you. Yeah, there's more courageous moments to come, right? Yeah.
Kim Benoy: Yes.
Angele Close: I I sort of feel like it's parenting my neurodiverse kid. I've had to really learn a lot about his particular needs and the way his nervous system gets activated. And it's been a real journey. And it takes a lot of courage because there's a lot that people don't yet know or understand about.
Angele Close: what my son has and other people have this as well, but it's not like a formal diagnosis currently. and I know across the globe because I'm in the community to understand this particular profile. But it takes a lot of advocacy and education and really standing up for my son.
Angele Close: that takes a lot of courage because it feels exhausting. can sort of feel like swimming upstream. And why didn't I just like some, you know, I notice it in myself because some days I'm like, I go on the Facebook groups and I'm like, I'm done. I don't want to think about it today. Like it feels too hard. It's exhausting, you know? But I'm also passionate about it. And I want to be part of the movement to help educate communities around this particular neuro diversity.
Kim Benoy: I bet.
Kim Benoy: Yeah, yeah.
Angele Close: And so it, yeah, I have to rally the parts of me that can feel courageous to do that work. feels really important. Yeah, that's most timely for me right now. Thank you for the question.
Kim Benoy: Yeah, Wonderful. Yeah. to the moms out there listening.
Kim Benoy: no matter what stage they're in, if they had their children later in life, or maybe they're like me, they're out of the house. What would be your main message to them?
Angele Close: Yeah, my main message is to find more ways of offering themselves grace and self compassion. Because, you know, through all the women I've been working with, whether they're mothers or not, over 20 years, we are so incredibly hard on ourselves, the parts of us that we that you know, the inner critic, we might call it really want to drive us to be perfect.
Angele Close: Of course, we understand a lot of that comes from wanting to live a good life, do what society tells us is going to make us happy. We're socialized humans, but a lot of that messaging that we've gotten is wrong and erroneous. I would just invite a mom to see if she can see and not to berate herself if she tried to follow that path that we've been told is going to lead to happiness.
Angele Close: to turn inward and just give herself some grace and compassion because we do follow along to survive and avoid discomfort and avoid what's painful. But unfortunately, by playing it safe to stay protected and, know, we don't, I don't believe we live to our full potential. because the world,
Kim Benoy: Yeah.
Angele Close: And what we've been taught is so erroneous. mean, it's sexist. It's got a lot of colonialists, racists. We've got a lot of issues still. We need to heal. And so if we have absorbed in any way, and most of us have, it's impossible to not even subconsciously that as a woman, are, these misogynistic ideals or that caretaking, for instance, isn't as important as a contribution.
Kim Benoy: Mm-hmm.
Kim Benoy: Yeah.
Angele Close: as earning money, say if you weren't earning money outside of the home, you worked and you contributed and you matter. And so I see too often women don't see themselves through that lens, that they matter just as much and that what they contribute is so important and that they deserve, that they deserve self care and kindness and nourishment and love and their needs to be met.
Kim Benoy: Mm-hmm.
Kim Benoy: Yeah. Yeah. Right. I think at this point, midlife. Yeah. We, hear those messages and we have the ability, usually the time to look inward and do that. And I want to make sure that we're telling the younger generation to, know, like my daughters, anyone's daughters start younger so that they can get that message and not have to wait until they're.
Angele Close: Yes. Yes. I feel like my sense of the younger generation is they do have a little more sense of, you know, they're, they are vocal, they are vocal and they sort of are requiring a more emotional intelligence, which is great. I think that is a definitely progress from past generations, right? Very hopeful. Absolutely.
Kim Benoy: 40, 50, whatever.
Kim Benoy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kim Benoy: Yeah, that's
Kim Benoy: Yes, very encouraging. Yes, yes, wonderful. Well, Angell, could you just let the listeners know where they would find you if they want to get your book or learn more about what you do?
Angele Close: Yeah, I have my own website, www.dr.ngelclose.com and there's links there for my book and other resources and it just talks about me and where you can connect with me if you're interested.
Kim Benoy: we'll put that in the show notes. Before we go, is there any one last little message you want to make sure the listeners get from you?
Angele Close: Thank you.
Angele Close: I think I'll just leave them with you matter. Just you matter. So treat yourself like that today. Yeah, don't take anything for granted, especially yourself and the light and the love and the beauty that you are.
Kim Benoy: Wonderful. We cannot hear that enough. Yes. Yes, exactly. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your time today and I hope we get to talk again soon.
Angele Close: That's exactly right. You should hear that every day. Yeah.
Angele Close: Would love to, thanks Kim.
Kim Benoy: Thank you for listening to Midlife with Courage. If you liked what you heard, I would love it if you would leave a review. Or even better, send a link of this episode to a friend. Until next time, take care of your beautiful self.
